Dev. Anti-Conscription Rally, 1918?

[graphic].
Summary:Éamon de Valera standing on a podium, surrounded by crowd and including tri-colour flags, half-length photograph.
In Collection: Republican Photographs Collection
Format: Photo
Language:English
Published / Created: [ca. 1918]
Subjects:
Notes:Title inscribed in ink on verso.

Additional information about this photograph is available on the National Library of Ireland's Flickr Commons photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/37513777630/

Physical description: 1 photographic print : in mylar. b&w ; 11.7 x 16.3 cm ;

more
Arrangement:Item
"Dev. Anti-Conscription Rally, 1918"?
One of our researchers is considering using this photo in an upcoming exhibition, and has asked if the group here could let her know everything that there is to know about the photo. It may well be a tough ask - but over to you.
Ultimately we "doubled down" on our request, and asked for input on this image of DeV in a jacket (NPA RPH3) and another image of DeV seemingly in an overcoat (NPA RPH4). Though the images have similar titles, the consensus is that they were taken at different places and times.
The feedback is that the first image is unequivocally on Cork's Grand Parade (with the National Monument in the background). And, given that we can find no record of DeV addressing an anti-conscription rally in Cork at this time, was possibly not captured in 1918. But perhaps the year before (around the time of his by-election win). Or perhaps in the months/years after the Conscription Crisis (in the lead-up to the Civil War).
The suggestion is that the second image is indeed probably in Dublin, perhaps in Smithfield. And could potentially - but not definitively - date from the time of the Conscription Crisis. Or perhaps shortly before - at a protest about Mountjoy conditions.
Photographers: Various
Date: Circa 1918?
NLI Ref: NPA RPH3
You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Comments

National Library of Ireland on The Commons
My first thoughts are Grand Parade Cork?
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
dorameulman
I agree that’s the Grand Parade in Cork, great photo!
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
guliolopez
My initial reaction is to suggest that this is the Grand Parade on Cork also. Here specifically. Looking past the National Monument towards Sullivan's Quay. This is was fairly common spot for public meetings in those days (Collins and others would famously speak from the same spot in the years that followed). The only thing that gives me pause is the lack of detail on the monument - but that's almost certainly a focus/quality issue. Grand Parade - >90% certainty.
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
oaktree_brian_1976
there was the Conscription Crisis in 1918, I see many photos of the crowd online, none from this angle
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
DannyM8
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/dorameulman] You are correct - if you look at this photo from the archive the "White - Corner Stones" between the Grand Parade and The South Mall match perfectly with the photo above - See here
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
 
✿ willem ツ
Tricolors with the bands horizontally. The first tricolor associated with republicanism is the 16th century Dutch Flag. It had its bands horizontally. It used to be orange, white, blue rather than red, white, blue as it is today. The orange had been filtered out at a time the relationship with the people and Holland's leading family was very uneasy.
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
DannyM8
Can't find anything tying De Valera to an Anti-Conscription Meeting / Protest on The Grand Parade in 1918?
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
Asdeewest
Those flags do not have horizontal bands. Flag poles are tilted. Tricolour is modeled after the French Revolutionary Flag
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
Rhys Chris Pease
Perhaps this may assist those researchers better equipped than I to spot details but I have located three occassions when Eamon de Valera addressed meetings in Grand Parade. Sunday Dec 9th 1917 ; Sunday February 19th 1922 and Sunday September 14th 1924. The first meeting was de Valera's first speech in Cork since he became the "recocognised leader of the Sinn Fein movement". the quote is from the Cork Examiner of the 10th December 1917 where an account of the meeting and the speeches may be found.
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/dorameulman] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/20727502@N00] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/66151649@N02] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/79549245@N06] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/32921850@N00] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/tycho1a] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/76023798@N06] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] You might also have a look at this Photo, we are looking for the Who, Where and When Help Photo No2
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
O Mac
I'd suggest this is from early 1922 when De Valera toured the country on his anti-treaty campaign. www.britishpathe.com/video/the-ireconcilable-mr-de-valera... In this W.D. Hogan of Collins (pro treaty) on the Grand Parade in March 1922 the podium construction is as above suggesting it may well be the same one. Such a temporary structure would hardly have remained in place for 4 years if photo taken in 1918? catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000206969
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/91549360@N03] Owen, we did feature the picture you referenced before see below, I am not convinced both photos are from the same time. There are no flags and it is unlikely that Collins and DeValera would share the same podium at that time. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6832672204] I have seen the podium setup in other photos - I wonder if it was erected and removed as required??
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
O Mac
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] I wasn't suggesting Dev and Collins shared the podium at the same time. I suggested it was the same podium and such a podium would hardly last in same place for 4 years. Yes. maybe it was set up for such occasions. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/76023798@N06] mentions that Dev was in Cork February 19th 1922 and your Collins picture was taken 13th March 1922. Maybe Dev liked flags and Collins didn't.
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
blackpoolbeach
"Taken on April 4, 2091"? I have just come out of hibernation after Hurricane Ophelia.
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpoolbeach] I saw that earlier, over zealous cataloging!! Welcome back.
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/91549360@N03] understood.
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
Dún Laoghaire Micheál
Dev was on Grand Parade in 1917 Grand-Parade-Cork---1917---BL-0001447-19171215-017_1
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
oaktree_brian_1976
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpoolbeach] future Mary, is that you?
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
oaktree_brian_1976
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] In the second photo, it almost looks like he's leaving the podium at this point. I see something wrapped around the pole behind him, a flag?
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
oaktree_brian_1976
RTE has a photo of the same event, but looks much different. I don't think it's at the same event... De Valera is wearing a light coloured suit in the RTE photos, he's in a dark suit and has glasses here....stillslibrary.rte.ie/indexplus/result.html?_IXMAXHITS_=1&...
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
oaktree_brian_1976
his collar looks more relaxed, not the starchy affair earlier in style. could this photo be in the 1920s?
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
Robert Jack Images
someone should've taken him out.
Posted: 18.10.2017  
 
gato-gato-gato
Excellent image!
Posted: 19.10.2017  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Hi All, I have just added this photo to our Explore album, this is the 100th time we have had an entry in the Flickr Explore Process. Needless to say we are all delighted with this achievement. You can see the album by clicking below. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/sets/72157653615261435]
Posted: 19.10.2017  
 
Rhys Chris Pease
Having looked at a number of photos in "The Life and Times of Eamon de Valera " I am inclined to go along with oaktree_brian_1976 that this second photo was taken in the early 1920's. Without indentification of the venue there were so many outdoor speeches made 1917-1924 by all politicans that it would take a full time researcher to go through them all. In relation to the second photo again posted by the National Libray of Ireland on The Commons , if it was a pre 1920 photo I would tentively suggest Smithfield , Dublin 23rd Septmebr 1917 at a meeting held to protest against the conditions in Mountyjoy Prison.
Posted: 19.10.2017  
 
le cabri
Congrats for the explore
Posted: 19.10.2017  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Thanks so much everyone. Both for the feedback on the Explore. But, perhaps more valuably for us here at the library, on the input on the images. I do not doubt or question any of the feedback we've received on these two images. And have attempted to summarise in the description. We will pass it on to our researchers. Forthwith :)
Posted: 19.10.2017  
 
BlueisCoool
A wonderful looking image.
Posted: 07.12.2017  
 
minions & myrmidons
thank you for all the details. i go by image mostly but love words. your efforts are deeply appreciated. especially since the irish have it all over other english speaking countries. truly.
Posted: 03.08.2018