The picture is amazing with its shallow depth and the sharpness!

There is superb detail in it. I love the feet on the upper windowsill behind him.

@Vab2009: sharp eye! :)

Question ... if the picture is taken on July 10th... why the heavy coats?

@tj_q8 and it's sunny!!, so doubtful it's July :-)

@34260314@N04 There must have been at least one good July during the last 100 years!

@tj_q8 Formality? Although you make a good point about the heavy coats...

lol I doubt there had been any good Julies ever. Well, formality could be a reason but man... I don't wanna imagine the sweat under those coats!!!

I have been trying to guess a location for this photo, and the best I can do is here, in Smithfield market. The building behind is called Smithfield House, and you can just make out that the section with two windows at left is set back a small way, then the section with the front door is set forward, and if the architect is right in the head, there is a matching section set back to the right, out of shot. On the OS 25" map, I see exactly one building like that in Smithfield, on the East side with a Bench Mark arrow on it. If that is the right building, it would put Traynor in the courtyard at the Western side of the market. All of these buildings have been demolished long ago, though, so it is hard to confirm.

The car is left hand drive.

I've seen a photo of smithfield house somewhere before - maybe in Niall McCullough's book.

@eyelightfilms Early cars were usually German in origin and left hand drive as a result.

It has been only 13 degrees here at times this past week - so maybe they were freezing too!

@tj_q8 Lol!!

@tj_q8 @nlireland Agree on the Weather point, this NLI photo was also thought to be 10th July 1922, subsequently changed to 10th January 1922. This is more January Dress than July IMHO. @nlireland/6700721941/

I think this photo is earlier than July 1922. I expect that this is an anti-treaty "call to arms" earlier in the year. For two reasons (apart from the non-seasonal dress): Firstly, I'm pretty sure that's Rory O'Connor to Traynor's left (leaning on the car). The Four Courts garrison were captured by July. And O'Connor would've been in FS custody. (And would executed before year's end) Secondly, I think that Traynor had fled/escaped Dublin after the Four Courts/O'Connell street actions. While Brugha died, most of Traynor's irregulars escaped from O'Connell St. Traynor would've likely been keeping a low profile - I'm not sure he'd have held a public meeting a few streets away in the immediate aftermath. In terms of location, I'd agree with Niall that this is likely somewhere on the north/west side of Smithfield.

This looks more an election rally rather than a man on the RUN, no uniforms no guns and presuming it is Smithfield it is within roaring distance of the Four Courts!

@79549245@N06 Good thinking, Batman! Would love to get this one sorted, as if it is 10th January, then we'd be re-dating 5 or 6 W.D. Hogan photos...

TJ.Photography asked ... if the picture is taken on July 10th... why the heavy coats? Note the gent with the cane with his head inclined is wearing a sam brown belt under his overcoat. Open the coat you can identify yourself, close the coat and you can look like any other citizen. The gent behind him in a wearing a coat of the same colour appears to have a piece of sam brown belt showing also. Given the fact that they are facing towards toe crowd I would suggest that their roles were bodyguards

@60329026@N07 Thanks for the explanation :)

Could this be a public meeting about this subject? 10th January 1922 Three anti-Treaty members of IRA GHQ (Curran says four); six divisional commanders and the O/Cs of the two Dublin brigades meet to formulate their anti-Treaty strategy. They say that the IRA's allegiance to the Dáil was based on the Republic be upheld and they argue that the decision of the Dáil to accept the Treaty means that since they are no longer upholding the Republic, the IRA no longer owes it allegiance. They call for the IRA to return to rule by its own executive and send a letter the next day to Mulcahy to demand that an Army convention meet on the 5th February. The letter is signed by Rory O’Connor, Liam Mellows, Sean Russell, James Donovan, Oscar Traynor , Liam Lynch and other IRA commandants.

This Suggests Oscar Traynor was captured on the 6th July (is there a difference between being Captured and being Arrested?) - so date looks wrong Jun-29 1922 Anti-Treaty forces from the Dublin No. 1 Brigade under Oscar Traynor occupy buildings on the east side of O'Connell St. including the Gresham and Hamman hotels. Two buildings on the west side of O’Connell St and other buildings (in York St.; Sth Circular Rd. Capel St.; Parnell Sq. and Dolphin’s Barn) are taken. HQ is initially Barry’s Hotel and then moved to the Hamman Hotel in O’Connell St. Jul-06 1922 Anti-Treaty IRA column of over a 100 men from South Tipperary under Mick Sheehan had taken over Blessington and were joined by men from the South Dublin Brigade and others fleeing from Dublin including Oscar Traynor, Harry Boland and Ernie O’Malley. They were surrounded and large numbers captured by the 8th July. (Nearly 200 captured in Blessington, Brittas and Ballymore Eustace.) Jul-27 1922 Oscar Traynor and a number of other senior Anti-Treaty IRA officers are arrested.

Sep-09 Oscar Traynor, Liam Pilkington and other jailed

Unless my memory is very bad I seem to recall great July weather periods in 1976 & 1996....?

Is the bloke at the front with the cigarette and glasses Sean Moylan? If it is, it can't be the same day as Danny's photo above (10th Jan), as he's in it with a different coat on.

@nlirelandI maybe miles wrong but I will ask the question - Is it possible that this photo is from 1925? Oscar Traynor was first elected to the Dail on 11th March 1925, Could this be him canvassing in his North Dublin Constituency just before that date?

If Niall is correct about the location, we can presumably get the time and season from the angle of the shadows. They're showing the sun at 45 degrees above the horizon and coming from the SW. Dublin is at 53° 20' N and 6° 15' W. Are there any nautical types here who can resolve this?

perfect! :)

Rats! I can't remember enough maths for this. I've got as far as 0.425 cos(x) + 0.798 Sin(x) = 0.707 where x is the angular distance of the sun from the equatorial plane of the earth. If anyone can solve that, it'll give you the month, and from there you can work out what time the sun was in the south west.

He was also a former Belfast Celtic goalkeeper. He can be seen in photo here www.belfastceltic.org/oscartraynor.html

@8468254@N02 , there's an app for that: pveducation.org/pvcdrom/properties-of-sunlight/sun-positi... If it is July the 10th, it's about 14:30

@8468254@N02 interesting approach :) ... but as far as I know, the elevation of the sun across the sky would change by season (being closer to the horizon line in winter). What's this formula? A classical harmonic oscillator? hmm I might remember if fractions were used (as in math books typically).

I've stuck the numbers into excel and got a curve out of it between the tropics. It looks like the sun was at 19 degrees above the equator, which would be about May, I think.

@gnmcauley You know it's not 14:30 because the sun is too far west, I think.

@tj_q8 The formula is: sin(h)=cosθcosϕcos(ωt)+sinθsinϕ where θ is Sun's height below (or above) the celestial equator (i.e. -23.4 deg in winter solstice), while ϕ is the latitude of observation place. ωt is the phase of Sun's revolution if noon is the point of reference

So we know the h is 45, phase is +45, the lattitude is 53.2 and we want θ.

hmm then we can start from : 1 = A cos(theta) + B sin(theta); where A = cos(phi), B = sin(phi) as consonants.

Using Niall's app, 16:00 on the 10th of January would put the sun in the south west but it would be considerably lower than 45 degrees. Half two on April 17th, appears to be what the it shows.

i'm sorry... sin(h) is not 1, but 1/sqrt(2). :) "re-doing calculations again lol"

@gnmcauley Niall, re your OS 25" if you look at the historic 6" you will see two Weigh Houses, I think the car is parked in front of one of these?

Given that the street actually runs a few degress west of due south, and the shallow depth of field makes it hard to tell the exact angle of the sun (E/W, as opposed to height) it looks (using Nialls app again) like sometime around early May or late July. 10th July isn't implausible. I think you can rule out 10th January or any date around early march though. Edit: Assuming at this stage that you're confident about the location.

I suspect the Car is a Modle T Ford - over to the motor men for model and year.

Wow! An overcoat with a velvet collar.....

Y'all are amazing and I know it won't be long and you will have it all figured out... I believe in you and am pulling for you to the finish!!! The photo is excellent ... such clarity in this vintage portrait capture!!!

I know it's slightly more tentative as a location than we're used to @gnmcauley but given your sterling record as Location Finder General (much friendlier than Witch Finder General) I think we should take a leap of faith, so @8468254@N02 while not "confident", it probably is sound enough...

@8468254@N02 Would that be Dublin: An urban history by Niall McCullough?

Brilliant sharp old photo. The comments above are wonderful also. ^_^

Maybe I am being a bit previous here, was the (brick) wall behind where they all standing the 'Weigh Bridge' that use to be in Smithfield.....or is that too early for such a device?

@nlireland That's the one. Fingal county libraries have a copy if you can't find it anywhere else.

@8468254@N02 Can't find a copy anywhere else? We have not one but two copies here at Library Towers! :) Working in our Reading Room this pm, so will have a look at it then...

@nlireland I think you provided a lot of the original photos as well, didn't you, so quite possibly the picture I've seen before was this one.

Hoot Hoot!! Info that may help in from Eamon Murphy over on our Facebook page. Eamon thinks that Rory O'Connor is the man on the left, which looks likely, as here is Rory O'Connor photographed by W.D. Hogan in the same place on the same day. Eamon said Rory O'Connor: "... was in the Four Courts in June and then surrendered end of June, and was in Mountjoy Jail till his execution on 8th December 1922 ... Rory was in the Four Courts with my great grandfather in June and was in Mountjoy with him in July so it can't have been July."

There are two Addresses to the Dublin Brigade by Traynor in the archives, here and here. I wonder do they have dates?

If my solar calculations are in any way accurate it'd have to be late April or early May, then. According to Wikipedia, Rory had that coat in June 1922, and was out and about in it (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rory_O%27Connor_(Irish_republican)) though the file history of the photo claims it as c. 1921.

@gnmcauley Will check the second of those this p.m. at same time as @8468254@N02's suggestion Dublin: An urban history...

I am still thinking much later than 1922 (Feb - March 1925) Would @joefuz or @10047629@N04 or@beachcomberaustralia or @swordscookie or@10047629@N04 care to comment on the car I say it is a Modle T Ford 4 Door, but what year???

It looks like a model T tourer 4 - could be one of several years(here's a 1920 one: www.bing.com/images/search?q=ford+model+T+tourer+4&vi...) . I thought we'd established that one of the visible characters was deceased by 1925, though?

@8468254@N02 oops - I Missed the R O'C point.

@nlireland Eamon from Facebook is clearly an astute guy who's up with his turn-of-century Irish history. I say this because great minds think alike (I made the same point yesterday - about Rory O'Connor and the fact that it was therefore probably early 1922 :)

Right, back from the Reading Room! @8468254@N02 I checked Dublin: An Urban History>/i> but to no avail! And @gnmcauley no luck with the "Address to the Dublin Brigade" - very much of its time: typewritten and no date. Whoever put those pamphlets in order has pencilled 1922 on it, but that's as good as it gets. I had a rummage in various Civil War/War of Independence books, especially those with photos, but couldn't find anything. Sorry!

@20727502@N00 You are quite right! You did say the same yesterday. Apologies for missing it in the general mêlée.. :)

@nlireland Ah well. Sure it's a nice book and worth wasting an afternoon looking at. Besides, it may prove useful for future pictures.

Yes, a bit much clothing for July, even in Ireland. Does every man wear a hat in old photos?

Men seldom went around bare-headed until the 1960s. No, it's not JFK's fault that they stopped.

According to the Irish Independent, April 3, 1922, the Dublin City Brigade I.R.A. paraded at Smithfield on the 2nd "under officers who recognise the Executive established as a result of the recent Convention", and were addressed by Oscar Traynor, Rory O'Connor and F[rank] Henderson.

@siulach I think we have a winner! @nlireland - GIve this person a cake.

@8468254@N02 We do indeed have a winner! Thanks a million, @siulach because now we have a correct date for this one, but also other W.D. Hogan photos taken at Smithfield on Sunday, 2 April 1922...

Great stuff...

Here's some of the text from page 7 of the Irish Independent on Monday, 3 April 1922: MOBILISATION OF DUBLIN I.R.A. OFFICERS SPEAK AT SMITHFIELD

Members of the Dublin City Brigade I.R.A., paraded yesterday at Smithfield under officers who recognise the new Executive established as a result of the recent Convention. The men were addressed by Comdt. Oscar Traynor, Comdt.-Gen. Rory O'Connor, Brig.-Comdt. F. Henderson, and some Battalion Commandants. Com.-Gen. R. O'Connor told the men that they were not asked to take any oath at the gathering, but were there to declare that they would defend the Irish Republic against its enemies, whether foreign or domestic...

Does that sound like the content of the pamphlet you looked up earlier?

The Irish Times has something on Page 7, Tuesday 4th 1922 on Traynor and the IRA.

@gnmcauley It was an address to the Dublin Brigade alright... Checking Irish Times now...

In the Irish Times, Tuesday, 4 April 1922:

The following official communiqué was issued from the headquarters of the 2nd Eastern Division, I.R.A., City Hall last evening... [lots of refuting statements Rory O'Connor had made on Sunday at Smithfield about munitions, etc.]... ... With regard to the statement that advertisements were inserted in the Dublin newspapers at the point of the revolver, here, as elsewhere, Mr. O'Connor's allegations are untrue. There were no threats of force. Mr. O'Connor will never convince the Irish people that in suppressing a free Press he is advancing the cause of liberty. It was Mr. O'Connor and his associates who, on his own admission, suppressed the Freeman's Journal... ... Mr. O'Connor denies that they are out to suppress Dail Eireann, but his denial comes too late. ... it will be the work of those who stand by Dail Eireann, and not the work of those who would use the Army against the people by creating a military dictatorship.

@gnmcauley Had a look again at the Address to the Dublin Brigade. Definitely after 7 July 1922 (so nothing to do with this Smithfield outing) as it mentions "... made glorious by the stand and heroic death of Cathal Brugha..."

Definite air of handbags about those competing statements in the newspapers, very spooky when you consider how short a time it was before the Civil War broke out.