Market Square, Moville, Co. Donegal

[graphic]
Bibliographic Details
Main Creator: French, Robert, 1841-1917 photographer
Contributors: Lawrence, William, 1840-1932
In collection: The Lawrence Photograph Collection
Format: Photo
Published / Created: [between 1865-1914].
Subjects:
Notes:Additional information about this photograph may be available on the National Library of Ireland's Flickr Commons photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/7534144708/

Robert French was the chief photographer responsible for photographing three quarters of the Lawrence Collection. For more information, see the Dictionary of Irish Biography: http://dib.cambridge.org/viewReadPage.do?articleId=a3369

Physical description: 1 photographic negative glass 16.5 x 21.5 cm.

Geographic Coverage: Moville, County Donegal, Province of Ulster, Ireland.

Caption on glassplate reads: Market Square. Moville. Co. Donegal. 1433. W. L.

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Uploading this as Joefuz asked for more Donegal photos, and specifically of Moville. We had quite a few, but couldn't resist this one for the young fella in the middle striking the weirdest pose ever...
Is that a gas lamp in the middle of the square that might help us date this one?
Date: Circa 1907?
NLI Ref.: L_ROY_01433

Comments

Cuddly Nutter
It hasn't changed much at all.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Swordscookie
Talk about a small affair? What a tiny crowd at a market in a town in Ireland, there are barely 100 people in the whole square and there's not a whole lot of produce on sale either. The pile of clothes behind the young lad with the bit of a stick appear to be uniforms with bright metal buttons and there is little else for sale in evidence. Compare this with the shot of the market in Galway a couple of months back? I found this copy of the same image in colour on Google! www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&safe=active&sa=N&...
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
@swordscookie Ahhh, that would be a colourised postcard from Lawrence Photographic Studios. Did I add the link here from last week's blog? All about a researcher "going places" with our Lawrence postcards...
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Cuddly Nutter
Still reading www.movillerecords.com/index.html
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
@shanekillen Any of the businesses here still on the go? Duffy's, Moville Hotel? And I think shop second from left is Merger's! Is that a plausible name?
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
RETRO STU
Looks like a clothes sale? Are those military men among the crowd (saw three) - the ones who appear to be wearing what looks like Glengarry caps?
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
@shanekillen May have been "established" in 1871, but obviously moved to a two storey building.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Niall McAuley
OS 25" map and Google Streetview
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Niall McAuley
@shanekillen If you look carefully, you can see that Maguires pub is now in the building at the extreme left of the Lawrence shot. I can't tell if it was there at that time, but it's possible.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Cuddly Nutter
Opps!! Maguires is actually two doors down in your photo.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
@gnmcauley Thanks Niall
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Cuddly Nutter
Merger's is the Inishowen Bookmakers but haven't found any entrires for Merger..
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Niall McAuley
Here is Edward Duffy, Publican, in the 1901 census.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Cuddly Nutter
There are 3 Butchers listed in the 1901 census for Main Street Moville, No 30 Edward McGeehan No 32 John Harkin No 48 John Crumlisk But I can find any house numbers in this pohto or on google earth, to try and put a name to the Butcher in this photo.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Niall McAuley
The building at the left with the gable with a round window is the Market House, and it looks to me as if it was just being finished in this photo. It's marked on the 1896 OS 25" map I linked earlier, and not on the 1833 6" map. In The History of Moville I found a reference: THE REV. SAMUEL MONTGOMERY'S APPREHENSIONS ... letter of my uncle to his brother Robert, written in 1857, will certainly interest our inhabitants.... At all costs, he must spend money in Moville, also rebuild the Market House, provide land for houses, and above all things, build a wharf! So when exactly was the Market House rebuilt? In the Dictionary of Irish Architects, I find: FERGUSON, JOHN GUY Building: CO. DONEGAL, MOVILLE, GRAIN MARKETS Date: 1869 Nature: Reconstruction at cost of Montgomery family. Contr: James Gallagher.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
@gnmcauley What date are you suggesting then? 1865 is our absolute earliest for any Lawrence photos, but the clothes in this photo suggest late-ish 19th century, and there are telegraph poles...
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Niall McAuley
Definitely after 1869 is all I've got so far! I think we need a ladies hat expert...
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
@gnmcauley Every home should have one of them!
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Niall McAuley
Aha! Not Merger, but Mercer: Mercer, Francis, grocer, Market sq.; agent for Lipton, Limited
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Aha yourself! Perfect timing, cos I was just searching online newspapers for Merger's...
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
@shanekillen Sorry for wasting your time - it's Mercer's - D'oh!
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Niall McAuley
Here he is at home, a few miles out of town, in the 1901 census.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Niall McAuley
By 1911, Marey Mercer was head of the household and not a tea agent, so that's too late.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Hold everything! It's staring all of us in the face - Lipton's wasn't even on sale until 1893, so that's the absolute earliest date this could be...
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Niall McAuley
There is a bicycle parked towards the top of the square, against the wall behind the lady in the long dark skirt.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
@gnmcauley So that means 189? (can never/will never remember) Should bookmark, like I did with your "Listen very carefully, I will say this only once" dating of the O.S. maps...
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Cuddly Nutter
It doesn't help with the date but John Crumlish/k home is decribed in the 1911 Census, as a "first class dwelling" having 5 rooms, seven windows at the front, and, as outhouses (at the back), a stable, cow shed, piggery, fowl house, turf shed and a general shed. The Buctchers in the photo has seven windows and if it is indeed John Crumlish/k shop/home then we know more than a bit about him. freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~palmerfamilyhi... We even know what he looked like www.movillerecords.com/crumlish.html www.movillerecords.com/otherrecords.html Is the Duffy in the last photo a desendant of @gnmcauley's Edward Duffy ?
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Niall McAuley
You can see on the census form B that Crumlish's shop was next door to Duff'ys pub.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
Cuddly Nutter
@gnmcauley The building next door to the butchers, in the photo, today is Susies Bar and it has 5 windows at the front as per the census.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
whatsthatpicture
From the two ladies in hats to the right I think this could even be ca 1900, definitely not too long before that anyway.
Posted: 09.07.2012  
 
whatsthatpicture
@nlireland Assuming that there are no actual records surviving, has anyone done any work on Lawrence's negative numbers? Given the range of images that you have shared so far, and the dates (both tentative and highly accurate) that have been suggested, if we assume that the numbering was sequential then you'd think there's be some strong clues in there. Here's a short timeline for starters, based on what look like some of the more confident confident dates. Already we can see the sequence is far from perfect, so I think my hunch just isn't going to work: 495 - ca 1902 www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6978773963/ 1816 - ca 1879 www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/7163415146/ 2257 ca 1907 www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/7105372223/ 7605 - 1903 www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/7247430400/ 8742 - 1906/7 www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6243191558/ 9715 - Jan 1902 www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/7453118390/
Posted: 10.07.2012  
 
TJ.Photography
LOL I made a comment about anti-aircraft batteries and now just realized that those are some cart handles lol
Posted: 10.07.2012  
 
whatsthatpicture
@tj_q8 LOL indeed - I saw your comment and just thought it was a very clever joke. Maybe just delete your confessional comment and pretend you meant it as such all along?
Posted: 10.07.2012  
 
TJ.Photography
LOL I like to be honest about my conclusions lol but I can pretend I'm clever ... I'm quite clever at that ;)
Posted: 10.07.2012  
 
whatsthatpicture
OK, my friend and costume historian Jayne Shrimpton states that those sleeves on the ladies' dresses were popular 1904-09 twitter.com/JayneShrimpton/statuses/222657109626585088
Posted: 10.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
@whatsthatpicture Brave attempt, James, re the numbering! But another compounding issue is that there are actually 2 sequences for two different sizes - the numbering of Lawrence Cabinet (LCab) and Lawrence Royal (LRoy) sizes... :(
Posted: 10.07.2012  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
@whatsthatpicture Brilliant on the sleeves. You're very good to go to all that trouble. I'll thank Jayne on the Twitter tomorrow. Will go with a conservative date of Circa 1907, I think, unless anyone feels strongly to the contrary?
Posted: 10.07.2012  
 
Niall McAuley
Sounds good to me. Perhaps the Market House was just getting a makeover some 30+ years after it was built...
Posted: 11.07.2012  
 
Cuddly Nutter
@gnmcauley If you look along the street there are several places it is dug up, so perhaps it was the pavement that was being worked on and not the Market House?
Posted: 11.07.2012  
 
Joefuz
Thanks for posting a Moville picture, Carol! Been away so just getting to see it now. I'll have to have a good study of it. There have to be some relatives of mine in the photo! No help whatsoever, but the chapel which is where the trees are top right was built in the '50s.
Posted: 21.07.2012  
 
scattered plane
The hotel on the right was owned by McKinneys-a monstrance from Penal Times was found in a hidden niche when it was being renovated (I have a report from the Irish Press which I'll root out) and is still in use in St Pius X church. McKinneys later became The Foyle and I understand it's currently being renovated for reopening.
Posted: 14.09.2017  
 
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Thanks Fiona, welcome along and thank you for your contribution.
Posted: 14.09.2017